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The Witching Hour by Tania del Rio - The future of comics and graphic novels... and my utopian hopes.
Links My Deviant Art Site / My Poorly Drawn Life / SteelRiver Studio (my company) / lonewolfblacksheep (my fiance's site) / Archie Comics / TOKYOPOP / Marvel Comics / Buzzscope / Newsarama / The Pulse / Patrick Tierney's Music / Cute Overload! / Monster Guy Web Comic / Christy Lijewski's Blog / My Crafty Blog 2010
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Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 03:29 pm
The future of comics and graphic novels... and my utopian hopes.

I was checking one of my favorite sites, Mangablog, and from there I was led to a link of a recent blog post by Becky Cloonan about floppies vs. graphic novels and how the whole Original Graphic Novel thing can't keep on the way it is. Too demanding, not enough pay, and individual volumes tend to disapear on the shelves with the rest of the masses unless they are lucky enough to receive a hefty amount of promotion. A lot of people have been discussing this on the web and many good points have been brought up.

As for my own perspective, I'm in a situation where I am not a graphic novelist- I work on a monthly book for Archie comics. When I first got the job 3 years ago, it was just the beginning of the "OEL" boom. Lindsay Cibos and Jared Hodges, the grand prize winners of the same RSOM I was in, were signed on by TOKYOPOP to create Peach Fuzz as a series, and many more artists soon followed in their footsteps and were being recruited by TPOP to create original graphic novels.

I admit at first, part of me was a little sad that I wouldn't get to jump into graphic novels right away - especially since floppies seemed to be a dying breed. Back then, it sometimes felt like TOKYOPOP was an awesome party that I wasn't invited to (although we often flirted!).

But now that I've been working on Sabrina for 3 years I can definitely see the advantages of this format. Not only do I get the gratification of seeing my work on newsstands consistently, I have a steady paycheck. Every week I turn in pages, and every 2 weeks I get a paycheck. It's nice! As long as I keep doing my work, I don't have to worry about when my payment will arrive (a rarity in the world of freelance!).

I've also been lucky in regards to getting fans and loyal readers. Rather than putting out one graphic novel, and trying to maintain my audience's attention for the next year until the next one comes out, I'm fortunate that new issues of my work are available at any given time, and that each month, I gain new readers. For every issue I get feedback - I can tweak a future storyline if I realize my fans aren't digging the direction I'm going in, or sometimes I'll deliberately do the opposite just to stir the fans up! (Hehehe) For example, if most of my readers claim that they want to see more of a certain character, I can arrange that. Or it the majority say they want to see Sabrina and Shinji get back together, I can bring in a third love interest just to make things interesting! It's this kind of interaction with my readers that I value. It's the ability to change my storyline and direction month by month. Of course, I have a "master plan" of major plot points, but it's nice to have some breathing room and the chance to be spontaneous with my stories. And now that I've already worked on close to 30 issues, there is more than enough material to make into graphic novels. (Archie already released my issues 1-4 in a mini trade).

I'm not trying to sound like a braggart, it's just that floppies really have been getting a bit of a bad rap lately. There have been times that I've felt that I don't get as much respect as a monthly comic artist as opposed to a graphic novelist, because floppies are "disposable" and temporary, while graphic novels have a more lasting appeal and are the "in" thing right now. Even I am to blame. I have failed at times to realize that graphic novels are not the only or even the best comic format. Are there problems with the monthly format? Yes. There's a reason that sales are dwindling and that more and more people are saying "I'll wait for the trade". It's a problem that floppies just can't be found as easily anymore. One pretty much has to go into a comic store to get comics, (and comic stores are also dwindling), whereas graphic novels can be easily found in the comfort of your local Borders or Barnes & Noble. Then there's all the annoying ads that you have deal with in a floppy. There's nothing like reading a story only to turn the page and find an 8-page comic insert advertising goldfish crackers. And now with Diamond having so much say over what makes it onto comic store shelves, a lot of aspiring creators can't break into the business of producing their own floppies. The good thing is that TOKYOPOP has given a lot of talented people jobs who may have been ignored in the regular comics world.

And you know, it's always been one of my personal dreams to look on a shelf and see it filled with graphic novels that I've created or worked on. To have a hefty product - with a spine! Something that gets to hang out with books on the bookshelf and not over there, wilting on the comic rack. I envy these Japanese creators who have 10+ volumes and multiple series on the shelves, and I marvel at how much work it must be to get to that point. I love reading manga because I get a satisfying chunk of story at once. Because I can sit down and spend a good hour reading a volume, as opposed to a floppy which I can breeze through in 15 minutes. There was a time when I would have given an arm and a leg to sign on with TOKYOPOP. Over the years I tried often to get something going with them. And, ironically, now that I've sort of stopped pursuing that, they've approached me about doing a one volume graphic novel. (Paperwork has not yet been signed, so I won't go into detail).

But I'm sort of glad that the last three years of my life have not been tied up creating graphic novels. I have several friends in the business, and I see how they struggle at times, how the workload and the payoff sometimes appear to be incongruous. I'm glad that I have had the chance to pursue my own side projects in addition to Sabrina - I've been able to put together Mangaka America, and maintain a webcomic as well as work on some other projects that have yet to be seen by the public. And hobbies! Yes, I even have some time for hobbies. Because I've always felt that it's really important for people to balance work with leisure. Too much of either is a bad thing, but if you can balance both, you'll be happier and less stressed.

But I digress. Now that it's possible that I'll be doing a graphic novel for TOKYOPOP, I am realizing how challenging it's going to be. To dedicate a year of my life - in advance - to this project, and then trying to balance that with Sabrina - and future volumes of Mangaka America - is a tough pill to swallow. Sabrina was my first gig and it's a good gig. Because of that I still consider it my #1 priority. I'm not willing to let my work on Sabrina suffer because of other projects that may come along. But other projects are necessary because, let's face it, Sabrina isn't going to pay all the bills. As a result, I have let TOKYOPOP know that I'm going to need to find an inker and a toner for my book because there's just no way I can do the whole thing myself in the time frame they want. I know some artists may find it hard to let go of having that full creative control, but I actually feel very comfortable with it if I'm working with a team I feel good to be a part of . I guess that's another reason I'm lucky to have Sabrina. I get to work with inker Jim Amash, and colorist Jason Jensen, and a variety of letterers to put an issue together and, corny as it sounds, I've learned the benefits of working with a team. And this is the sort of thing I feel really needs to happen more with graphic novels. Like Becky pointed out, in Japan, graphic novels are rarely done by one single person. These artists have assistants - sometimes as many as 10! Contrast that with the young American artist - often just starting out, creating a 160 page graphic novel for a market that, while growing, is still nowhere near the Japanese level of comic-consumption, and then to expect that same artist to do everything from the script, the thumbnails, the pencils, characters, backgrounds, inks, and tones, and sometimes even the lettering- does sound kind of crazy! Add that to the fact that they have to pretty much self-promote the hell out of their books, it's really amazing that any of them have managed to do it at all! Well, I'm sure they've learned a lot from the process, at least!

I hope with my own graphic novel I'll be able to enjoy the support of a small team, but the biggest hurdle will be finding one. The budgets for these projects are already so low, that there is hardly anything I could offer an inker, money-wise. And, unfortunately, part of having a happy team is making sure that everyone feels like they're being paid fairly for their efforts. It's just such a difficult thing to balance.

I find it so frustrating that this industry, one that provides good entertainment, that encourages kids to read, that inspires and gets imaginations flowing, that leads to blockbuster movies and merchandising, would have so little money to spend on the hardworking artists that are a part of it. I just did a 3-panel comic strip for a soft drink company and I got paid more for that one strip than I do for a whole issue of writing and drawing Sabrina! They're not even going to end up using it and I still got paid for it. Why is it that advertising has so much money to burn? That's a rhetorical question, of course.One just has to open up any floppy to see that advertising is probably the one thing keeping this industry afloat. (And it makes me wonder how much the people drawing those Goldfish cracker comics actually get paid...) That aside, I sometimes feel that a big comics union would be a good thing for artists... but that would probably be pointless anyway, since most of us are freelancers. It's not like we can start demanding higher "salaries" or "benefits".

Anyway, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say other than that I share Becky's frustration with the way things are going. I don't want to see this industry die, but I don't especially like where it's going, either...

Will this industry eventually drown under it's own weight? I think it's possible. I agree that there definitely needs to be changes made because it really can't continue like this for the next 5, 10 years. Something has to give, or it will collapse. Now, I'm no expert on business. I'm definitely too right brained for that. But these are my sort of suggestions, or rather, "wish list", of what I'd like to see more of in the comics world. These are things I feel could potentially strengthen or even save comics (and the creators!) although I know people will probably come back and say that my ideas are un-realistic or there's too many potential problems, etc etc. I understand that nothing is ever as easy in execution as it is on paper, but nonetheless, this is what I'd like to see in a happier, healthier comic book industry:

1. Anthologies

I'm going to agree with Becky wholeheartedly on the concept of anthologies, or collaborative works where artists can showcase their work in a monthly format, which can later enjoy being collected into a graphic novel format. I actually wrote a column about this a while back, as it's something I'd really like to see more of.
I always hear people say "but it's too expensive" or "it's too risky" or "it's not cost effective". But I guess I fail to see how this would differ from what TOKYOPOP has already been doing. It's just another way of presenting the material - one that I feel could be more successful. Let's say, for the sake of this example, TPOP decides to "take a risk" on 8 artists. Each artist signs a contract with TOKYOPOP to do at least one 160 page graphic novel, with the possibility of 2 more. TPOP isn't sure whether or not these books will pay off until they are completed and in stores, so it's a risk and an investment on their part. But lets say these same artists sign a contract to do 160 pages, but in 20 page installments. Every two months TPOP releases a graphic novel sized book with 160 pages, but with 20 pages from each artist. And two months later, the next one, and so on, until the 8th volume is complete. The stories which have received the best reaction could then possibly graduate to their own title, and new artists could be phased in from time to time to keep things fresh. Of course, this is a very simplistic view of the matter. I know printing costs and distribution are things that would make it difficult to release something like this every two months. But what if they lowered the "quality" of the graphic novel format and made it more like a magazine? TPOP was printing and mailing out free copies of their Takuhai magazine every couple months for a while there (I'm not sure if they're still doing this...). But that was a full-color magazine with new articles, activities, and comic previews, and printed on nice paper. If they could afford to do this and mail it out for free, why not make a b/w version, on cheaper paper with a few stories by OEL artists and charge a small subscription fee? Well, maybe there's something I'm missing, but I'm surprised it hasn't really been done yet. (Except for Drama Queen's yaoi Rush anthology - which has proved to be high quality at a reasonable price.)

2. Pay what it's worth.

Graphic novels have been often touted as the "savior" of the comic format. Many have seen them as a way to preserve what is perceived as a dying format, and it seems to be working so far. However, I strongly feel that if graphic novels are expected to take on this lofty task of saving comics, then publishers should put more money into making them. Especially with so many publishers jumping on this trendy graphic novel bandwagon, they clearly expect to gain something from it. If they're so confident about diving into the graphic novel arena as a way to tap into a hot trend, then they should show their enthusiasm with dollar signs and put more faith in their artists to put together a good product. If this means they have to be more picky about what they choose to print, so be it. At least quality standards will be higher, and readers appreciate a high-quality product - not something that appears rushed. And if artists get paid what they deserve to make a graphic novel, they won't have to go fishing for as many freelance jobs on the side to pay bills, so all their time, energy, and focus can go into making a great graphic novel. A graphic novel in itself is a huge chunk of work - it's a year of someone's life. And with more and more graphic novels gaining recognition and acclaim, their worth as a medium is growing, but the paychecks aren't. Bigger budgets would also be able to allow for more...

3. Team work

Graphic novels don't have to take a year to complete. Not if the lead artist has a team of assistants to help get the job done! I would love to see more teamwork and collaboration in graphic novels. Not only does this give more people the chance to break into the business, but it also provides a neat sort of mentorship, where the assistants learn the trade by doing, and by following the examples set by the lead artist. But this is tied in to my previous suggestion, which is for publishers to invest more money into their graphic novels. If the assistants can get paid what they're worth, they're more likely to really do a good job, and this creates a better product overall. Also, publishers gain by having their product finished in less time so it can start making money sooner. And with volumes coming out more frequently, it is easier to maintain the interest of the readers and attract new fans. And when fans get to read their favorite titles with less downtime in-between, even better!

4. TOKYOPOP is not the only publisher

Are they the one's who sort of started all this? Yes. Are they the leading publisher of Global Manga? Yes. But they aren't the only ones doing it. Del Rey is starting to experiment with Global Manga, and so is DramaQueen and a number of other smaller publishers. And then there's all the major book publishers. Graphic novels are "in" right now, and many book publishers are starting to get into publishing graphic novels, or are at least interested in getting into it. Some may not know the best way to approach it, but the interest is definitely there. Even my own webcomic, My Poorly Drawn Life, has received interest to be printed as a graphic novel by a major publisher, and that was the last thing I would have expected! Memoirs like Fun Home and American Born Chinese have shown what is possible for this format. And the nice thing about big book publishers is that they often have larger budgets and distribution. You don't have to deal with Diamond when you work for a book publisher. Your book can be special-ordered by comic shops but are sold primarily in bookstores, not the other way around. They also have a close relationship with the major book chains and have strong marketing departments. Unfortunately, it is harder to get your work seen by a book publisher, since many don't accept unsolicited material. It usually requires some word of mouth or other creative device to get noticed by these big publishers. Which brings me to...

5. Self Publishing

Everyone knows that self-publishing is hard. And few can expect to make a profit off it. But those who are persistent - really persistent, do get noticed after a while, especially if they have a strong web presence. Right now, comics pays so poorly that it's almost worth it to try self-publishing. You can expect to pay out of pocket for all of the expenses, but at least your material is your own. And once you have a finished product, it is that much easier to get picked up by a publisher, because by having made your own comic you have proved that you can handle all aspects of the process and follow through with creating a complete package - story, pencils, inks, letters, etc. Unfortunately, getting your comic distributed is a whole other story, especially since Diamond has made it so hard to even get into their catalog. So I say forget Diamond and forget about self-publishing floppies because it's going to be too tough to get through those doors. Instead of floppies, self-publish graphic novels. Is this more work? Yes. Is it more expensive to print? Yes. But! If it has a spine, and if you buy it a barcode you can at least sell it on Amazon, and you have a better chance of getting it onto bookshelves overall. But how does one afford to do all this? This is where teamwork comes in again. What if 10 people got together to self-publish an anthology? These ten people could split the costs and if you still wanted to go the Diamond route, they might be more willing to take a product that has multiple artists involved. They can easily turn down a single comic by an artist they don't like, but if there's a graphic novel with a variety of art styles and content, they may feel it to has more potential to sell. And what about taking the teamwork even further and teaming up not just with your friends, but with other small self-publishers? Each company can arrange to have one portion of the book, and all the expenses and profits could be shared. Of course, this can also be tricky to orchestrate, and contracts would have be exchanged and all that. But again, once you have a solid, professional product, it's that much easier to show it to book publishers and try to get them to buy your idea and take over the printing and distribution costs.

6. Subscriptions

It used to be that you could subscribe to almost any comic book and have it delivered to your door each month. You see how well magazines handle subscriptions - they can offer them at a fraction of the cover price, simply because they can avoid distribution fees that way. And not only is it harder to find comic stores these days, but I've gone into a shop looking for something only to realize it's not there. Then the shop owner will tell me "I can re-order it from Diamond" or he'll tell me to give him a list ahead of time of what to order, but that's really not something I want to do! When I physically go into a store to buy something, I want it to be there. I don't want to have tell the store to order X and Y months in advance. I don't want to order it after I find out it's not there. I'd rather save myself the trip and just subscribe to the things I want, and have them delivered directly to me. I know if subscriptions were more common then comic stores would suffer even more. But what it comic stores took the initiative to offer mailed subscriptions? I know Midtown Comics here in NY does that. That way they could still sell comics, but perhaps to an even wider audience. Anyway, on a self-publishing side, subscriptions is another way to get your book directly into the hands of readers, and bypass Diamond altogether. I think this could also work with magazine-style anthologies, sort of like Shonen Jump, but with original content, and released bi-monthly or even quarterly.

Phew! So anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue. This has been my longest post in some time. But I guess I had a lot to say! ^_^ What do you guys think? Am I living in a fantasy land or being overly pessimistic? Or do you also believe in change?

Current Mood: contemplative

48CommentReplyAdd to MemoriesTell a Friend

jtabon
jtabon
jtabon
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 07:53 pm (UTC)

A fantasy? Yes.
But a damn good one, and definitely one worth working towards. What's frustrating (sad?) is how long it'd take for changes like these to come to fruition.
Good post; well said. =)


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:25 pm (UTC)

Thank you! I do think it's fun to dream about the possibilities from time to time. ^_^


ReplyThread Parent
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 08:31 pm (UTC)

Hey Tanja,

Nice long post. Glad you got that off your chest.

A couple comments that may clarify a few things.

1. Anthologies are notoriously difficult to sell in the US that's given but it could work on a more independent level, like Rush. As you know I've been working with Shogun Magazine (http://www.shoguncity.com)in France for a while now. This is the first ever big-time Global Manga Anthologie in the Western World. So that success or failure could certainly be a indication where things are going. They're doing also pretty much what you suggested. Their contracts are four episodes only, which is the format of one graphics novel. If for any reason the readers reject the title, the company has no further obligation to the property. And if it's a success the creative team might be able to negotiate better terms faster. Also the paperbacks are published rather quickly after the prepublication. Within a couple months. Now, they've changed direction already a couple times since the whole project has a strong experimental character and they're about to split it up into three separate magazines focusing on Shonen, Seinen and Shoujo and lowering the price and page numbers. We'll see what the future brings...

2. Payments: Most advances are calculated based on 50% of the royalty figure (could be anywhere from 8% to 12% of the retail price times the first print run of the book). If you do the math on the average Tpop OEL, then the advances are quite generous and almost always more than 50%.
But looking at it from the creators point of view, it is of course not enough. This makes it a very difficult situation to deal with because the publisher is essentially like an investor, putting money into your (or if the copyright is shared,the combined) property. The publisher acts then like most lending institutions with unsecured loans. Their terms could be very unfavorable to the creators. I think every creator needs to know, what they can deal with on those issues. The reality is that practically no OEL makes back its advance on a domestic release alone, so additional moneys will only come from foreign licensing (most likely) and secondary exploitation like movies and merchandising (less likely). Unfortunately, it could take years until the projects is sold in enough countries and payments trickle down to the system, so one has to be in it for the long haul.


ReplyThread
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 08:40 pm (UTC)

Sorry, I know your name is spelled Tania...just hit the wrong key!


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:38 pm (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful reply! I've actually been quite interested in following what's been happening with Shogun magazine and I'm envious that it's only in Europe! I do think it's good that they are treating it as a sort of experiment and are flexible enough to change direction as needed.I feel it really has the potential to pave the way for similar publications if it succeeds.

As for payment, I do realize that it is a huge investment for TPOP to sign up an artist (especially a previously "unknown" artist) and that when you break down the numbers the way you have, the advance is generous in many ways-- especially considering that, yes, most OELs have not exactly been flying of the shelves. I guess my main issue is the fact that because each volume is such a time-heavy commitment, that it sort of becomes each artist's primary job, if you will. And when you look at the advance as a year's salary, it doesn't hold up quite as well. I think it's a tricky thing because it's all freelance, too. I mean, when you hear the word "freelance" you generally think of short, multiple projects, not necessarily a year-long endeavor. I personally feel that if companies can't give these artists larger paychecks, then at least sign them up as employees so they can receive benefits and the like. Of course, that's a whole other matter.
I also feel that instead of spending x amount of money on 50 OELs that aren't likely to sell a ton of copies, focus on 25 and put more money into those so the artists can hire assistants and get the work done more quickly. I've always been a supporter of quality over quantity, and right now it feels like everything is slanting more towards quantity...


ReplyThread Parent
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:17 am (UTC)

Tania,

Your absolutely right on all points. The advance is not enough to live off of and Tpop would have been much better off with less projects (same can be said about Shogun which is going to have out more books than Tpop).

However, I want to mention one thing. Tpop's idea was always for the creators to do TWO BOOKS per year and not one. It sort of morphed into one book a year because that's what creators felt more comfortable doing. I know for a fact that the Tpop office is not happy with the release schedule. So, if you create two books, then the advance would be let's say 30k, which is already a lot better.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 01:51 am (UTC)

Ah, that's interesting. Yes, it makes sense that TPOP would have expected a quicker turnaround from the beginning. I had assumed that because it's taken each artist about a year to complete a book, that this was also the expectaion. I guess it's all one big learning process!


ReplyThread Parent
pinguino
pinguino
pinguino
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 09:43 pm (UTC)

wow, awesome post

not sure how well a serialized anthology would do. prolly the only best selling one i can think of is flight, and those are all standalone stories. i know thats how a lot of manga in japan gets audiences, basically cheap monthly anthologies.. just dont think it would work here. if the artists were all amazing and it offered something different like flight does, it could work.

i also never was a fan of flip comics either though..



ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:45 pm (UTC)

Thanks! I see what you're saying and I hear a lot of people say the same thing - that anthologies just don't do that well. But I find it odd that I can't really think of a major anthology that a big publisher has tried putting out on a regular basis (besides Flight, which seems to be doing well). I do think there is a difference between an anthology of stand-alone stories (which, honestly, don't always interest me, either) and an anthology series>/i> where each volume contains the same characters and continuing stories that readers can follow and get hooked on.
I guess my view is that if TPOP is willing to take such a financial "risk" on all these new artists, then why not take an equally financial risk on an anthology? I just don't recall seeing enough similar attempts out there to be convinced that it would be an instant failure.


ReplyThread Parent
pinguino
pinguino
pinguino
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:54 pm (UTC)

maybe you should pitch it to them ;) unless they already read your LJ.

I like standalone stories but i have a short attention span. I think with anthologies one fear I have is that, perceptionwise, youre holding a big huge book and you really only like 2 stories in there. so you're paying more to read those 2 stories. Where if the author released them in a trade or in a comic series, you can have exactly what you wanted to read in the first place.

Tokyopop and the other companies do the sampler manga books though, which i think are kinda similar to anthologies. i think its cheaper for them to pick up a new audience that way. it doesnt really help the people who discover books at b&N and borders though, but it begins to seed the word of mouth.

i guess it depends if the publishers just see anthologies as a way to get a broader audience/more exposure for their crew of creators, or if they see it as a viable storytelling platform. in that case, they should make them look a lot nicer and stand out

ALSO.. heh.. robot does well. thats an anthology and i thiiink its got one or two ongoing stories in it. anyone reading that who could verify?

but robots also treated as like ... a way to collect work not normally seen in the us, and uses talent whose work we dont get a lot of but is awesome (abe). paper stock and printing is awesome on it too and it looks really really good. it takes itself seriously.




ReplyThread Parent
pinguino
pinguino
pinguino
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:02 am (UTC)

http://www.dmpbooks.com/titles?n=15

^^ thats robot. digital manga. put together by range murata.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:15 am (UTC)

Oh yes, Robot! I bought a bunch of the original Japanese volumes and I really love the presentation. You're totally right about that - the better the presentation and quality of the work, the better it will sell. I mean, look at Flight - each volume is simply gorgeous. But I also think it'd be interesting to try a "cheapie" anthology - especially since some people will balk at paying 25 dollars for a full color book (especially if it's part of a series). Well, not cheapie, exactly, but an inexpensive book printed in b/w. Similar to TPOP's preview compilations. I have definitely been introduced to some good series because of those previews and I feel it could benefit new artists the same way.


ReplyThread Parent
pinguino
pinguino
pinguino
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:31 am (UTC)

im more likely to drop $25 on a book that looks super high quality even if i dont know who most of the artists are, than $10 on a b/w anthology where i dont know who most of the artists are. not sure exactly why.. probably more of the longevity/bookcase value you mentioned.

i think that no matter what the form, if theres a story in there by someone popular and its the ONLY way to get it, people will buy it.

oh yeah. a couple years ago there were a handful of western anthologies printed in comic book format that did well too.

i guess really the only ones i saw doing bad were the indy ones in the late 90s. trying to think of more that even crossed my radar.

isnt there an english version of shonen jump selling ok?


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 01:53 am (UTC)

Yeah Shonen Jump has been going on for a few years now and it seems to be quite popular, although I don't know specific sales figures. They even started a spin-off Shoujo Beat magazine that's also been going for over a year. I had heard a rumor once that it was Viz's plan to phase in new original artists on the magazine (as opposed to just re-printing Japanese manga), but I haven't heard anything about that since...


ReplyThread Parent
studioqt
studioqt
studioqt
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 07:21 pm (UTC)

But I find it odd that I can't really think of a major anthology that a big publisher has tried putting out on a regular basis

>heh<
RIP Super Manga Blast! from Dark Horse.

It's transition to L-R to R-L didn't happen fast enough to fight off the onslaught of TPop trades. Of course, hindsight is 20-20. Even if it did switch over sooner, I don't think it'd sell well enough unless they packaged it with collector cards and put in tiles with big anime tie-ins (I don't think Shadow Star/Narutaru counts as an insaneley popular anime).

There IS an audience for other kinds of anthologies. People still mourn the loss of Viz's Pulp. But right now, there doesn't seem to be enough people to support less pop-py anthologies. Maybe in a few years when the audience matures a little more?

Risking money on underpaid creators is STILL cheaper than buying licenses for an anthology (especially now). Plus you have the added benefit of selling your original property any way you want without having to answer to the license-holders.

BTW, I surfed in from Mangablog.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:27 pm (UTC)

Welcome!

I almost forgot about all of those titles you mentioned (I guess that's a bleak indication of their success, haha). I also just remembered that TOKYOPOP did have a shoujo anthology, Smile! Which is actually where I discovered Peach Girl and Mars.

And maybe you're right... maybe the audience does need to mature some more before original anthologies become a viable option. Regardless, I do hope someone takes the plunge and gives it a fighting chance. Heck, if I had enough money I'd try funding an anthology project. Maybe Yen Press will be the ones to actually succeed where others have failed...


ReplyThread Parent
jonnerbloo
jonnerbloo
jonnerbloo
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:06 pm (UTC)

I've noticed a degree of self-loathing, both in the comic industry and among fans, regarding this issue. Starting back in the late 90s people became all-too willing to bash the monthly comics. You couldn't go to any comic news site without coming across a column by the latest Warren Ellis imitator ranting about how "pamphlets" are pure evil, and the New World of Comics is soon to be upon us.


Thank you for not submitting to the uglier side of comics fandom...the desire to bash one's self in hopes of appearing cutting edge and new. It's not the same thing.

Personally, I would love to see more magazine-style anthologies. "Disney Adventures" has several comics every month...and certain comics like "Bone" and "Little Gloomy" got exposed to a brand new audience that way.

Gamer magazines (of which I follow) sometimes have comics...more than a few of which become quite popular.

Why not comics in still more magazines? There's really no end of possibilities, if one really has the money and the desire to reach new audiences.


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Thu, Apr. 12th, 2007 11:48 pm (UTC)

Thanks! Yeah, I believe there are good and bad things about every comic format, but it's no good bashing them into the ground. And I had totally forgotten about Disney Adventures! That's exactly how I discovered Bone when I was about 13 years old.I know they continue to put out the magazine, but it's mostly filled with comics based on their own tv shows. Still, I always enjoyed reading it as a kid. Now we just need something similar for an older audience!


ReplyThread Parent
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:04 am (UTC)

Hello!

Ok, 2 things hit me about your post- 2 things I havent ever been able to understand. Say you sign on for a 3 book serice, thats almost 3 years of your life..... So how, exactly, are you NOT an employee of the company that is paying your bills? I know its traditional over here, but it seems so pointless. Its like "oh well, you knew you were going to be a starving artist, right? They dont need health insurance". But, I bet you I could find a secratary at most publishers, who does pull down full-time wages, and has health insurance. So...why is the (I'm sorry to be so frank, but..) replacable secratary rewarded with bennefits, while the lifeblood of the industry is not? Competant artists are much harder to find that compatant secrataries. No disrespect to secrataries, of cource, since I'm essentaly married to one.

The other thing...why don't we have a union? Freelancers need unions even moreso than salleried joes. Beeing freelance DOSNT mean you cant have a union. Actors have unions, right?

I realy dont mean to be ripping on the publishers. I appreciate TP and how they have grown the industry to a point where it might actualy support many many more artists than we could have 10 years ago. And I know that they realy do want to give a good chance to the newbies, like myself.

But rules forbidding the discussion of, say, pay rates or page rates... I'm sorry, thats bad buisness right there. People should have a right to compare wages with others willing to do so. Rules like that are what allow the pay gap between men and women nation wide (not something I'm specificaly accusing TP, or anyone else, of). It insures that newbies are going in blind, and that nobody can be realy assured that they are makeing a fair rate. Not that I still wouldnt sign on with them if they actualy invited me.

God I wish there was a union. I could rant for much, much longer, but I'll stop now, in the interest of staying mildly on topic.

But, if we realy want American comics to do well...shouldnt we be doing our best to attract the best artists? How many talented people has the industry lost because somone decided not take take the hard, grueling track? I know theres a glory in braveing the hard road, but theres also something to be said for supporting ones family.

I'm done now. Sorry.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:29 am (UTC)

I completely agree with you on this issue of freelance. As I replied to Limemanga, above, one usually thinks of freelance as short-term projects that get done and then you move on to the next thing. But these are year-long freelance projects! These artists DO deserve to be considered employees. And you're right, their skills are valuable and not everybody can do what they do! My dad, who works in a corporate computer-programing job likes to remind me that the secretaries at his office make far more a year than I do. (Thanks, dad) And hey, I know secretaries work hard and I know I could never do their job as efficiently as they do(plus I get nervous on the phone, haha) but don't I at least deserve to make a comparable salary at my own profession? Or at least get benefits like a regular employee?

The issue of discussing rates is an interesting one. I do agree that when each artist is in the dark about what their colleagues make, then it's tougher to know what is the norm - or to negotiate for more. But I think talking about salary openly is something that isn't even done in other professions. I know my dad with his corporate job doesn't talk to his co-workers about what they all earn. But the difference for him is, the information is out there. One can google computer-programming, or teaching jobs, or construction work, or whatever, and see what the average salary is for a person with this or that amount of experience. It just isn't that way with comics. Maybe if there was some kind of anonymous forum where people could discuss their pay rates without mentioning who they are or who they work for? Hmm.


ReplyThread Parent
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 12:35 am (UTC)

theres a difference between not wanting to discuss pay rates (mostly for social reasons), and being forbidden from doing so. Do you think people would actualy be willing to post such a thing?

Does anyone actualy know why there ISN'T a union?


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 01:58 am (UTC)

You're right, that is an important distinction! Does TPOP actually have in their contract that artists can not disclose their rates? That is surprising.
I do wonder if people would make use of an anonymous forum. In addition to their rates they could list their years of experience, their position, the general size of their company, perhaps even gender. It'd be really interesting the study the average rates for each one...

And I do wish there WAS a union for comic artists. I had thought there might be a particular reason that there isn't one, but what could that possibly be?


ReplyThread Parent
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
goldfishhead
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 04:06 am (UTC)

I dunno why there isnt. But I bet some of the older guys might know. Scott McCloud would know. Your editor might.

And yes, i belive (someone correct me if I'm wrong! My memory is admitedly shabby!) that that is a TP contract stipulation.

Well, I guess youd find that out soon enough, huh?


ReplyThread Parent
studioqt
studioqt
studioqt
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 07:03 pm (UTC)

And I do wish there WAS a union for comic artists. I had thought there might be a particular reason that there isn't one, but what could that possibly be?

Because freelancers can't agree on anything. But MOSTLY, I think it's because there are so many people trying to break in that a large publisher would rather not mess with a union and hire some noob they can exploit (note some of the T-Pop contracts).

The comic book professional's union/guild thing has been tried a decade or more ago. The one meeting I attended had them in the still-planning stages. I think later on everyone got distracted, or ran into an unknown-to-me impasse.


ReplyThread Parent
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:02 pm (UTC)

Yeah, the union thing has been tried. One reason why the comic book field has been shunned by any kind of organization like that is that there is not enough money in comic books and the contractual situation is too simplistic. I also think publishers would refuse to work with unions. They didn't like it when artists had agents, either.

Let's look a SAG (Screen Actors's Guild)for example which is comparable since it's also about entertainment. Some members of SAG make huge amounts of money and there are lots of members to take membership fees from. The accounting in the movie business is also a thousand times more complicated than the comic business and it would be virtually impossible for actors to collect residual income. On the other hand a lot of independent producers don't like to work with SAG because of it's difficult administration and harsh bond policy (a producer has to post a bond of 1 1/2 times the actor's salary with SAG before shooting and even if the actor has been paid in full, must wait up to one year to receive the bond money back from SAG in some cases). Unfortunately, most trends are motivated by money, that's why it's called show business and not show art.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:35 pm (UTC)

Thanks once again for your insight, David! It's so great to hear from an industry professional who's not only involved in the creative side of things, but also knows so much about the business aspects, especially on an international scale. That's something I hope to develop as I get more experience.


ReplyThread Parent
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 09:00 pm (UTC)

Danke, I appreciate it. And I can also not overemphasize the need to be as well-educated in business as possible. Unfortunately business is diametrically opposed to the art field, which makes an integration of the two sides very difficult. But one's gotta eat...


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:31 pm (UTC)

studioqt, your reply made me chuckle. It's true that freelancers are freelancers for a reason... because we're crazy!

I'm just kidding of course, but it does take a lot of organization (and money) to put together a union that actually does something other than swallow dues and scare potential employers away.


ReplyThread Parent
lilrivkah
lilrivkah
Rivkah רִבְקָה
Sat, Apr. 14th, 2007 10:12 pm (UTC)

Because somebody has to actually work up the steel to start one first and the time to get enought people interested and join.

Unfortunately, most of us are kept so breathlessly busy it never happens. IMHO, comic book creators have one of the most grueling, time-consuming, least paying jobs that exist in our country. Who else does 60-80 hour work weeks for under minimum wage without benefits and typically over a month wait between checks? And I'm sure most publishers would like to keep us there.

I've lots of thoughts on this whole thread/entry, but I'm so sick of the politics in the industry in general.


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Sun, Apr. 15th, 2007 05:56 am (UTC)

Aww, I know what you mean about feeling sick of everything. I feel kind of sad, actually, because just a couple years ago there was such a good vibe out there. So many of us were starting out on our comic careers during the global manga boom and were so ambitious and passionate. And it hasn't really been THAT long, but I feel like in some ways we've already been beaten down and have become so jaded! Well, I can only speak for myself, and I've definitely become more jaded. But I do have faith that things will improve with time...


ReplyThread Parent
lilrivkah
lilrivkah
Rivkah רִבְקָה
Sun, Apr. 15th, 2007 07:04 am (UTC)

I think there's a lot of stuff already improving like major publishers getting in graphic novels, Yen Press starting up an anthology (beginning of 2008, I think) and some pretty quality original titles (they're the ones that got Svet's next series), and people just gradually accepting the medium in general. The growth is still consistent, but it's become quiet. No more large outbursts as we're used to seeing or falling over our feet because OMG! Girls draw comics! That's no longer a major draw. Which is both good and bad. Bad that none of the publishers ever really capitalized on it like they could have, and the moment's just about passed. Good because that means the industry is starting to balance. VERY good! :)

I wouldn't say so much that I feel jaded and more that I feel . . . tempered. Like I can put up with all the sh*t I've gotten so used to as I keep my eyes focused on the long goals rather than the short. I especially have a lot of faith in the future of children's comics and 18+ comics as our generation matures. But those will be more gradual changes. In the meantime, I suffer making roughly $13,000 a year, and just try to live while I create.

In all, I think what hurts us most is the lack of organization. Why haven't graphic novels been segragated into sections yet like they do with books? You have romance, sci-fi/fantasy, non-fiction, etc in book stores, so why not with comics? Drives me up a wall because I hate having to filter through all the sci-fi comics to find my slice-of-life stories. ;_;

And I think we'd all be able to keep that "spirit" more easily alive if we were all less distant from each other and could hang out over drinks and discuss shared woes so we don't feel so incredibly alone. This career is LONELY, and so I propose: everybody move to Austin, Texas. We'll get a big house and share rent and make awesome comics. :)

*dead serious*


ReplyThread Parent
tiredfairy
tiredfairy
tiredfairy
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 01:35 am (UTC)

What's really important about your post is that you clearly list the pros and cons with all the formats. There's a tendency to claim that it's an either/or situation and that's impossible. The way comics work it would be impossible right now to lost monthlies as a format because the industry is based around it. But you can't lose gn's either because they represent a format that reaches another audience than the monthlies. Both have cost issues, and then there's the whole online/downloadable thing.

As a format I prefer gn's because as it stands right now you get more for what you're spending and the industry is moving away from monthlies the way they currently work for a lot of good reasons creatively and financially. But my perspective is from ex-DC editorial so it's a bit biased. Most monthlies that are not superhero titles barely break even, at least at Vertigo where I worked. The trades are what buffer it. But then the ogn's, if they aren't based on something like The Sandman, aren't exactly making big money either.

Mainly I agree with Warren Ellis who, unlike his sychophants, has a very even perspective. You can't just lose monthlies and you can't ignore gn's. Comics is on the verge of some major changes that will hopefully help rather than hinder...my concern is more for independent publishers who often get lost in the battles between the big two. But thankfully companies like SLG are trying new venues too and with more freedom to take risks in certain ways than DC or Marvel.

Also, hi Tania. I don't know if you remember me but I was on a panel with you and Trina Robbins about women in comics at one of the big apple cons. :}


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 02:00 am (UTC)

Thanks for the comment! Yes I do remember you - it was real interesting hearing about the editorial side of things on the panel. How is your own gn coming along?

Anyway, yeah I definitely feel that both comic formats are worth having for different reasons. I just worry that if things continue the way they are, that one - or both - will eventually phase out (although at this rate, it's much more likely to be the monthlies.)


ReplyThread Parent
tiredfairy
tiredfairy
tiredfairy
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 02:26 pm (UTC)

I think it's possible monthlies might fade out eventually, but the industry would have to make online/downloadables more viable and they'd really need to start defining gn's better. As it stands all they really are are longer comics without ads that are usually self-contained stories. Although the book market considers trades to be gn's they aren't really.

If they industry does swing more towards gn's, which I think books like Fun Home have at least proven the viability of in the critical acclaim sense, they're going to need to adopt a kind of model like Vertigo does with artist payments since the projects take longer to produce. Artists get paid when they deliver pages, usually in 10 page increments. At least that's how it was working on the MINX books. And At Death's Door by Jill Thompson was done a similar way with timed payments that were worked out in the contract. Of course, DC has the ability to do that in a way other publishers may not.

Which is why your anthology idea is a good one. The Fables ogn, for instance, was all written by Willingham but drawn by different artists. Endless Nights was the same thing, so you can have something for everyone. The only issue there is coordinating the talent and you need some kind of hook, whether it's a name like Gaiman or Willingham or an artist like Manara...or something like Flight that's offering something you can't get anywhere else.

Over at The Engine there was a big discussion about this a few months back, with the We Hate Monthlies and the GN's Forever sounding off. But neither "side" seemed willing to concede that the industry can't just dump one of the formats and survive. Where would get the material for trades if you don't have the monthlies? Doing just gn's would mean altering the entire industry's publishing schedule and model hugely, are people willing to wait that long for each new project? On the flip side the cost of publishing monthlies and the fact that the readership is slowly decreasing means it can't keep up the way it's been.

I don't think monthlies are going to die out, but they will/do need to evolve a bit. And gn's are far from perfect at the moment. But Manga more than anything has changed the landscape and potential of comics so the next few years are going to be mighty interesting. At this point technology is changing so fast anything could happen that could change everything anyway.

My book is coming along slowly but surely. I think having it tied in to my Masters degree has hindered it a bit...but that's nearly done. I find myself in the brand new position of trying to get published. Wish me luck. :}


ReplyThread Parent
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:38 pm (UTC)

Excellent points! And it's true - a good "hook" goes a looong way when selling things of this nature.

And, of course, let me wish you the best of luck on your project!


ReplyThread Parent
mistressnashya
mistressnashya
Mistress Nashya
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 05:47 am (UTC)

Maaan, I couldn't wait to get home to read this. I saw it on my way to work and was jumpy all day wondering what all you'd get into. Perfect! You hit so many things right on the head about everything in the comic industry right now. I hope what you and Becky wrote gets put up on the main page of SOMETHING. Like maybe TPs site as an article or that website you write stuff for sometimes. Other artists need to see this.

I have to admit the fact that so much work is expected at a time is what's kept me from submitting anything to TPOP. I'v read and heard too many horror stories about just how all of this works. Not just with them but MOSTLY with them. I honestly think TP is too the point where they need to start doing only one volume stories to test the waters with new artists or something. Seems like they're trying that now, like Go with Grace, and what you will get to do. Congrats by the way ^^! 160 pages is a LOT but it's easier to swallow knowing you only have to do it once for some reason.

Comic shops and bookstores just need to merge. They all sell just about the same thing. Seriously. The GN format just comes off more sophisticated or something. But comics are just about super heroes and kiddy characters these days. I won't deny it's great being able to read my fave story in one big chunk but the waiting is KILLER. I'm a comic shop devoti so I make the trip every wednesday to pick up my 'floppies' then I truck it over to Borders to get my other stuff. Even so you can find tons of not so great stuff in that format too. The whole comic industry is over saturated .

The anthology thing needs to be tried and tested by the big comic publishers as an actual method of getting new artists and series out there. TPOP practically already did it with RSoM. There was just a cash prize! Some of those contest entries went on to be a series. It's like a pilot episode on TV. If people like it they could vote instead of only having TP editors look at the work. In the end it's the readers/buyers that decide what stays on the shelves and what fades away. TP can obviously afford it. They put out a book full of unknown artists work, after paying out cash prizes, in hopes they would sell and get the interest of MORE artists. TP took a huge gamble and it must be paying off because RSoM is still going! I have to wonder how many copies of RSoM actually sold. What you mentioned above is the exact same thing, contracts and all.

I wish my reponse was as articulate as everyone elses but I'm like, rawr, you know! LOL. A lot of this is all so confusing. For many artists it's just about getting their work OUT there. Some of them do it for NOTHING and just want that feeling of accomplishing something. I makes you reluctant to even TRY. The fear of actually getting picked up by a publisher is insanely scary because you suddenly realize your life, time, energy, emotions, is no longer yours. It's all so overwhelming. I know honestly that's what's been keeping me away from all of this. I figure I have to try on my own first. If I drown, I drown. I just gotta kick harder and keep working until I get somewhere.


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:47 pm (UTC)

Don't worry Ms,Shatia - you're just as articulate as the rest. Thanks for your thoughtful reply, too!

You're totally right about RSOM - it is basically an anthology that TPOP puts out on a regular basis. And it seems to get quite a bit of attention (but perhaps this is because of the contest aspect..)

I second your idea about letting the readers choose the winners. I know they have the "people's choice" award, but it'd be cool to be able to vote on a bunch of entries and decide the top ten. Sort of like American Idol but for comics! (Sorry, I'm a dork! ^_^)

Of course, given the thousands of entries that are submitted, there would have to be quite of a bit of narrowing down before the readers had a chance to vote. But let the editors do that part, and let the audience (and buyers!) decide what they really want to read and see more of!

And on a personal note, I think you're doing just fine working independently. If something for you doesn't feel "right" about pursuing a gig with TPOP or any other publisher, then you should go with your gut. Fungus Grotto is so amazing, I really feel you'll have an easier time than most when it comes to finding someone to publish it. ~_^


ReplyThread Parent
lazesummerstone
lazesummerstone
lazesummerstone
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 05:56 am (UTC)

Thanks for such an interesting read, and I have to agree with all your ruminations. I wonder if the U.S. graphicnovel reading public will grow to a substantial enough point where people creating these types of books in the U.S. can hire the assistants we need to put out books with the frequency that publishers like Tokypopop expect?
I think Becky is correct in that there is a tapering off of sucess of the graphic novel, but I think that's mainly due to how bookstores and the general public think they should be buying the books. I think that we have to push even beyond borders bookshelves and set up some kind of comic selling stores that sell almost exclusively these manga type books! At the moment most barnes and borders are getting a little cautious about ordering because they simply don't have enough room on the shelves for the hundreds of sku's coming out each month! And so things are starting to stagnate I think.
I personally think its possible, and if getting in on the groundfloor during a publishing revolution means I have to work for TP for almost nothing, then so be it!


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 08:53 pm (UTC)

Thanks for the comment! I agree - I would love to see a store dedicated to just manga and graphic novels. And I have noticed that my local Borders - which used to be so good about adding new titles to their ever- growing comic section have suddenly seemed to be putting the brakes on in that regard. (Could this be a direct effect of Kurt Hassler leaving his position as the graphic novel buyer for Borders?)

And you bring up another good point - about taking a lower paying gig to get your foot in the door. Heck, that's why I signed on to do Sabrina, and it turned out to be the absolute best choice for me. And that's also why I wanted so desperately to work for TPOP a couple years back - just so I could have the exposure. I guess my perspective has changed somewhat at this point though. I must be getting greedier! ;)


ReplyThread Parent
anderson_t
anderson_t
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 05:38 pm (UTC)

Came to this from Mangablog.

I think once companies get their head around the fact that serial anthologies aren't supposed to 'make money', but to 'keep readers interested' in an imprint [a line of GN releases--the ones serialized in the anthy]; then you'll likely find more anthologies springing up--but in the case of RUSH, the actual format [a non-magazine style] is just catering to the 'collector mindset' that many BL fans have. It's a niche market that's being heavily catered to [I don't consider BL manga a ‘niche genre’ anymore--there's too many hands in licensing pie now, and the genre is FULL of titles], but the market is still minor compared to mainstream. I think mainstream readers would read a magazine-style monthly [don't know about a mook-or phonebook format], but I'm anxious to see what Yen Press has in store. ^_-

From a writers POV: As for creating on a bi-monthly schedule, it’s not that much easier for writers than going the GN route. Our completed outlines and/or scripts must have editorial approval before being turned over to the artist for installment-size illustrating, and so as writers, we often have to have our series' complete with a start, middle, and finish—before pencils are started. What's great about serial work is, once you ‘sell’ the series to your publisher, then you’re free to get input from your artist [collaborator at this point] and tweak the series as time goes on, under the eyes of your editor…but beforehand—almost as much writing has to be done for serial work, as is for GN work…just pointing that out. ^^' So yes, the great thing about serial work is, the freedom you have to take your time and look over the series you’ve sold, and iron out any fuglies found by fans and critics; and of course, the joy of watching the story grow with the artist you’re collaborating with.

On being open about pay rates: IMHO, pay rates should not be discussed openly, especially when it comes to the world of serial work. 0_o. In one of those perfect Walgreens worlds, all creators working on the same imprint, with stories running in the same anthology, would all make the same salary—but we don’t live in a Walgreen’s world. Some creators bring fanbases to the table, some creators have experience and published titles under their belt, some creators have an art style that’s going to be fandom gold [based on market trends]…and so not everyone commands the same pay rate. Start pointing out who makes more, and you’re going to have some very disgruntled creative groups. 0_0.

-Tina Anderson


ReplyThread
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 09:05 pm (UTC)

Welcome! And thanks for your reply - you bring up some good points, and it's nice to hear from a writer's side of things (especially since writers usually get neglected in debates like this). It's not ALL about the artist! :P

I see what you're saying about discussing pay rates openly - and you're right. So much of it has to do with an individual's experience or mainstream appeal. Still, it seems really difficult to gauge even a basic "average" for what you can expect to get paid in this line of work. It's all so secretive and it can be really frustrating to determine what you feel your worth is, versus what an employer says it is, and find a happy medium between the two. Of course, most of us won't be the next Jim Lee, but to even have a glimpse of the overall pay scale would be so helpful...


ReplyThread Parent
limemanga
limemanga
[ LIME MANGA ]
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 09:13 pm (UTC)

As to pay rates: Ideally the page rates for the prepublication would be enough to get the work done and paid for and the paperback would be a separate income stream. It used to be like that in the 80's in France and to some extent in the US (in Epic magazine). I had a storyline published in the German Heavy Metal at one point and they paid around $100 for each page and then again the standard 50% advance for the graphic novel.

Now with Shogun (and presumably with any other upcoming anthology), they're paying a decent amount for prepublication, so you can produce the work. But this is also considered the advance for the paperback (the actual prepublication fee is just a small token amount).


ReplyThread Parent
anderson_t
anderson_t
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 11:04 pm (UTC)

It's like Tania expressed above--it's frustrating to hear about how GN’s are booming booming booming, and bookstores fueling that boom are doing so, but with licensed manga from Japan. LOL! Anyone looking to get in on that torrent, comes in to find that despite the boom, there’s just no cash up front plans in place for new domestic talent. :/

I think it’s frustrating for creators stateside. The GN market right now is growing fast, because of the GN's selling in bookstores [most of which are in the manga format], and let’s face it, this boom is fueled by established foreign titles—licenses for which, are growing more expensive by the year. So now pubs are turning toward 'global' or domestic creators, but at this point in time, there's little room for a cash-healthy prepublication budget, [this is alsdo hampered by some publishers insisting on long-term 3-volume release submissions up front, from unsigned creators. Yet I think, in the long run, anthologies will help this. They were allow pubs to set fair page rates and pay creators on a smaller scale, and on a regular schedule, thus allowing them the flexibility to create a more in-depth multi-volume series, build themselves a fan base, and thus, make their GN releases profitable enough, to out weigh a publishers loss on producing the anthology.

Some companies are comfortable with "we pay in royalties, so you keep your rights, and get a modest advance against the royalties upon delivery of art" while other pubs do the "healthy page rate upon delivery, plus royalties" BUT they insist on a shared copyright, [which isn't always as shared as it seems].

^_-


ReplyThread Parent
anderson_t
anderson_t
Fri, Apr. 13th, 2007 11:06 pm (UTC)
Sorry for the errors

I'm typing in an airport--on a laptop, but my familiar surroundings. ^^'


ReplyThread Parent
comicmaster_v
comicmaster_v
Vanessa Satone
Sat, Apr. 14th, 2007 07:37 am (UTC)

I think the problem with monthly comics right now is that they're too expensive. Why spend $3/issue on monthlies, when you can get a trade of, say, 4 issues for $10, and will most likely contain extras. So it's less money for more content. I'm all for monthlies, but they need to be printed more cheaply. As you said, monthlies are disposable, but I don't think a lot of people see them that way. It seems like fans are more interested in keeping them as collector's items, which is why they have nice printing, driving up the costs.

I would also like to see how a Shonen Jump-style anthology would work with all original material. I'm interested in seeing how Yen Press' anthology will work out. (I think Svetlana's comic might be the only original comic at launch, but I'm sure they plan on adding more later.) I know a lot of people aren't fond of anthologies because it's rare that you like 100% of the content, but it's probably better to spend $5 on something where you like some of the content than spend $10+ on a graphic novel and find out you don't like it at all. They're also a great way to test out new talent and give them exposure.


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taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Sun, Apr. 15th, 2007 06:00 am (UTC)

You're right about monthlies being too expensive! I also balk at paying 3 dollars (or more!) on an issue of something - unless it's an artist or writer than I really love. But because of rising prices, I'm less likely to take a chance on a new series. I know printing costs have gone up and most books are printed on glossier stock, compared to the crappier newsprint days. But I'd much rather read a monthly on cheap paper and pay less. Save the fancy paper for the trades, I say!


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inkandthunder
inkandthunder
Becky Cloonan
Sun, Apr. 15th, 2007 12:52 am (UTC)

I love all this discussion. Really gets the juices flowing, right? The thing about anthologies is I think most people making them are going into it with the wrong idea- Either trying to make it like FLIGHT (which is speartipping the whole anthology movement) but are coming up very short.

I can't wait to see someone make an anthology without Flight in mind. It seems everyone is comparing their new anthologies to it, or copying the format (full color, lethal in size, most have some sort of vague theme) but it's like they're missing the point, that you can't reproduce Flight. People see the success and think they can jump on without thinking it through.

I guess the idea would be to do the anthology- compilation- MAGAZINE (i like that word!)- A Comic Magazine- that would come out on a monthly basis and be totally cheap. It'd be like buying a monthly except you'd get a handfull of stories instead of just one.

Imagine if Marvel started doing it's Civil War tie-ins like that! If you could pick up all the World War Hulk or Ahnialliation suplimental stories in one chunky monthly volume for low cost. It's fun to think about even if it might not happen!!

Comics are totally going through puberty right now. The industry is growing at such a steady rate (Not as fast as in the 80's maybe, but then it was just bloated and not proving any lasting growth.) I expect to see a lot change out of creator demand as well as natural market evolution.

And I can't wait until there's more money in this industry!!! CASH that's what I'm talkin about!!

Great post.
-Becky


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taniadelrio
taniadelrio
taniadelrio
Sun, Apr. 15th, 2007 06:11 am (UTC)

Thanks, Becky! Usually I don't get too riled up about things, but your blog entry really got me thinking... and I realized I had all these things building inside me that I just had to get out!

I like that despite the problems you pointed out, you remain quite optimistic for the future of the industry. I'd like to share that optimism as well. It's too easy to just get upset and beat down by everything that is going wrong.

And I have to say... if Marvel did release all the Civil War stuff as a monthly volume like you suggested, I would have *definitely* picked it up - and I'm not usually a big reader of superhero stuff. I think if anyone could make a monthly anthology work, it'd be DC or Marvel.

Well, thanks again for the comment - and for getting this fire started!


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